In the last blog post of buyhavanese.com, we discussed the CKC Breeder Accreditation Program Survey noted below:
Breeder Accreditation Program Survey
The Canadian Kennel Club is considering creating a Breeder Accreditation Program. Whether you are a breeder or a purebred dog owner, your feedback is very much appreciated. Please complete the survey below that best describes your involvement in dogs. The survey should take you no more than 5-7 minutes.
If you have bred a litter in the last 5 years, please complete our Breeder Survey:
If you are a purebred dog owner, please complete our Puppy Buyer Survey:
* The Breeder portion of this survey closed quickly wth no pre-warning to Breeders.
* The Breeders who responded "NO" to the survey had no opportunity to post any anecdotal responses supporting their position.
* The Breeders who posted "YES" to the survey were permitted to post further anecdotal responses.
This situation prompted many Breeder Members of the CKC to write in and complain about the Survey for a Program that
a.) does not protect the animals being served, and
b.) discriminates in favour of Breeders who support the Program.
The Internet has the ability to level the playing field for Breeders who voted "No".
The Most Recent Edition of the Online Magazine, ShowScene, asked Members about the Survey and the Proposed Program.
Below are the responses posted in ShowScene in the section entitled, "The Fancy Speaks". Please note that these individuals are Breeders and Judges who cross over the various Breed Groups. No one Group is over-represented.
Buyhavanese is happy to see that concerns, already expressed on this site, have been reiterated by respected Members of the Canadian Fancy:
ShowScene: The Fancy Speaks
The CKC recently sent out a survey in regards to creating a Breeder Accreditation Program. What are your thoughts on the CKC having such a program? Of most importance what do you think the criteria should be for a breeder to qualify, and at what cost?
William (Sandy) Gunn - Ontario
Pardon an old cynic but if it isn't about income generating for the CKC, what is it about?
Accomplished, serious breeders are, have been, and will be accredited by the owners, exhibitors, and trailer’s of the pups and adults they produce generation after generation, and by their peers who, in recognizing their successes, choose to breed to their stud dogs and acquire their bitches as brood stock. A piece of paper from CKC really is redundant, and will almost inevitably be expensive!
Brian Taylor - Ontario
We have had similar programs such as Master Breeder etc, with very limited success. The CKC should not be involved in this scheme, as nobody at CKC as paid office staff, really knows much about breeding or dogs generally.
For such a program to work it would require tremendous cooperation from many breeders to reach any form of consensus.
Kate McMillan - Saskatchewan
So long as the CKC continues to accept registrations in my breed (and others) for animals of colours that indicate impure breeding, I won't consider any so-called breeder "accreditation" program to be worth the paper it's written on.
David Swartwood - Ontario
Most breeder accreditation programs come with a fee of sorts. Our parent club, other National clubs even the AKC has these in place and they do weed out a few breeders, but what they do allow is those who pass the minimum requirements who are great at marketing and have the funds to lay out to gain more exposure to sell puppies. Take a look at any of their sites and you will see pretty pictures of cute puppies from people in your breed you have never heard of.
Old time breeders, like myself for instance, feel there is no need to jump through said hoops and pay a fee for more exposure since their reputation will speak for itself and they don't need the extra exposure to sell puppies. Many of those long time breeders barely have enough puppies to replace the ones they sold to families 13-14 years ago that have passed on and would like another, so this new system would provide no benefit whatsoever.
So if this is yet another way to raise money, I think there are better ways. As a member of CKC, shouldn't they be promoting purebred dogs and purebred breeders anyway, and supporting members who already pay for club benefits? When was the last time we saw anything in print in a major publication or newspaper about why the public should support pure bred dogs?
Don't we have a Public Relations Department? Time to step it up and fight back or the PETA groups, anti-docking groups, government bureaucracies will take all of our rights to own and breed dogs away.
Jean Tremblay - Ontario
I certainly understand that head office is trying to bridge a huge gap after they had to backtrack in the website advertising which was designated free for premiere members, which in itself was abused just based on the title as anyone could buy themselves credibility.
Sadly I see this going the very same way. A quick cash grab and then years of ignoring the abuse. Why would a long time respected member of the breeding community, be forced to pay for recognition of their tenure and respect earned from their peers?
Pam Murphy - New Brunswick
I am against the accreditation courses. I feel it is just another money grab opportunity, because someone takes the course does not mean they apply it etc. Or have integrity, or even health test, let alone value good temperaments. I work full time, plus my dogs and grooming etc, "time" would be a factor, so do I want to take a course? No. This is a hobby, I am 52 years old and most people are older also. Having a CKC membership, and being involved in showing, costs a lot of money.
When the SPCA initiated kennel inspection and licensing, then passes the known puppy mills first!!!!! Seriously! I think the CKC should be promoting purebred pedigrees/breeding integrity/health testing and temperaments etc.
Our work, quality of our dogs, successes, health and temperament, should be enough and maybe more screening needs to be done when becoming a CKC member. I have researched various legislations and in some it was satisfactory to be a kennel club member, and involved in showing that separated a hobby breeder from a commercial breeder. Maybe we need that clarification.
What about the people breeding "designer dogs?" Both can still be purebred and they are mixing breeds! No ethics of integrity of pedigree there! Or breeders who don't health test? I am a big believer in health testing.
All I can see this doing is discouraging more people from joining CKC and continuing to breed. While breeders and show entries continue to decline, as people get frustrated, and doing what they love becomes continually more difficult. This is just another difficulty.
The survey was poorly done! I do web work as a career, and it was awful in every way. It certainly left me with feeling it was all about a money grab, attempt for the CKC.
Although I did vote for CKC to be involved with non-purebred dogs for events etc, after I had some discussion with my CKC director about it at the time, I now regret that decision. I feel CKC has lost the main priority of purebred dog breeding, and integrity of a pedigree as its main priority. I also feel it is now more about how can the CKC make more $$$$$, when our shows are dwindling, as well as memberships to local clubs etc.
Entries here have fallen since the cropping and docking ban came in, I believe it also affected not only the show entries, but also some breeders stopped breeding as a result. You make things too difficult and we are going to lose more, and it affects me personally as did the docking cropping ban, why is the CKC not doing more to fix that situation for breeders who still want to choose to dock, or breeders, having the right to choose. I still feel that there was a lot of damage done with vets and SPCA who we once supported, now treat us like criminals instead of cherished successes. That damage still exists! Years later!
CKC members for the most part should be, a jewel in the crown! And the ones that are not should be banned. A paper on a wall, which means you can answer questions the way the CKC wants to hear them, does not mean they are applied in practise etc.
Janice Lamontagne - British Columbia
A reputable breeder should not just be breeding to sell, but to be bettering the breed. They also should be showing the dogs. All puppies must be registered regardless show or pet, not just the litter, as some people are doing. They cannot sell to pet stores.
At what cost, I am sorry but there should be no cost. We pay dues to the CKC, no discount for family, we pay for our kennel name, and to register our dogs - that is enough.
Leah Swatko - Ontario
Well. I did the survey and posted on the Facebook page as well. I don't have an issue with accreditation, if it actually meant something to Ag Canada, CVMA, the municipalities and all the various bylaws. Otherwise it is just whistling in the dark. Honestly the huge amounts of money spent over the decades should give me a free pass. Thousands have gone to CKC in just registrations. Never mind showing/trialing fees. Yes I could of made a fortune, breeding mutts, but I have ethics, which seem to be in short supply out in the real world.
CKC seemed to be interested in partnering with CVMA and pet food makers. Well I feed raw and have for over 15 years. My vet bills have diminished to a few hundred a year, other than the rare large bill for an emergency. I don't over vaccinate, I have learned to do as much for my dogs as I did for my livestock when I ran a mixed farm and fed my family, and several others on produce from my garden and meat from my livestock.
Suddenly CVMA wants to take control of docking and cropping, they are making noise about feeding and training as well. Soon there will be more legislation in place for dog breeders, than there are for trucking of hazardous materials on our highways and rail lines.
CKC needs to stand up for the dog breeders, and I have not seen anything more than polite so very Canadian like, letters to CVMA. Or the Gov. of Ontario and BSL as it spreads.
This little comment doesn't begin to cover the issues faced by dog breeders. I just had a couple stop by as they were on the way to pay $600.00 for a yorkie X poodle mix. Where are the bylaws that protect me a registered breeder of generations of quality purebred dogs?
Dogs who live to mature ages of 13-17 and not just in Australian Shepherds, but in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels as well. Where is the cut in my house insurance, because I live where I can legally have more than 3 dogs over the age of 3 months? Where are the breeder connections to promote the well-bred dogs, not the conveniently located ones? CKC has so much work to do, to recover their reputation with me the breeder of purebred dogs. I see them as simply paper pushing, and money taking. $1000.00 + on registrations of my last litter is insane.
Sure pass it on to the buyers but there are not may willing to travel to this part of the province. They will drive 8 hours east to west, but not 5 hours north. I won't even start on dog shows/trials. I am an ASCA Rally, Obedience, and Conformation judge, I dropped my CKC license, as it was silly to pay for something that was rarely called upon. In ASCA I have been to Europe 4 times, all of the US countless times and I don't pay for my licenses. They are maintained by my attendance to seminars and the good work I do on my assignments. I could go on.
Adele MacAskill – Ontario
Many jurisdictions including the GTA are working on legislation to register breeders. If the legislation is passed it will become law at the municipal and conceivably at the provincial level as well. At the provincial level the program/ aw would most likely be administered by the provincial SPCA.
Currently CKC member breeders must follow a “Code of Practice”. I believe anything the CKC can do to gain recognition for breeders following the “Code of Practice” by strengthening the current program and adding an educational component is a program worth developing.
If the CKC could get “out in front” of the municipalities and provinces with a new program and gain exemption for CKC registered breeders hopefully it would keep the SPCA and politicians out of our breeding programs. I would rather be “judged” by those in the fancy than by those who are not committed to breeding or the fancy in general. In summary I hope the CKC can move on this, expedite delivery while working with CKC members, local and provincial governments to bring about this before a piece of legislation is written without input from breeders and the CKC.
Reed Fowlie - Manitoba
In retrospect since filling out the survey, I'm not sure there is any benefit at all. I consider us to be very responsible. We have been in the breed for almost 30 years. When purchasing our dogs I spent considerable time researching pedigrees to pick stock that I felt would make an exemplary foundation for our kennel, and provide the genetics to go forward.
We show our own dogs, they are BIS winning, specialty breed winning, multiple group winning, group placing, field title, and obedience titled dogs. We do all of the OFA testing plus for our breed. We maintain immaculate condition of our dogs and their living quarters. We are ideally set up for this breed and can offer free running and structured exercise options to ensure optimum condition.
We participate in conformation, obedience, rally, agility, barn hunt, lure coursing, chase ability and do pet expos. We do this, so we have the best dogs we can produce and maintain, but do you know what, the public couldn't care less about any of this, they either, don't know enough to care or they just don't care.
Of course there are always those radical dog owners that feel every purebred dog produced should be perfect, perfect health, perfect behaviour perfect longevity, those people live in la la land.
There is no such thing as the perfect dog, but they expect that if you have bred it, it had better be so, and it better come with an iron clad guarantee as such and such can't happen, when it comes right down to it purebred breeders eat a lot of crap.
Our last litter had 3 puppies, we were keeping pick male and female and had a stunning bitch available for a pet home, as her bite didn't come in properly. We had lots of interest, home number one- outright lied to us on who was going to own the puppy, home number two- swore up and down they would never let the dog run loose unless in a fenced area, their posts on social media one week later, it took them 6 hours to catch their other dog after letting it run loose in a provincial park, and they couldn't understand why the dog wouldn't come back as they let her run loose there all the time. Home number three- was outraged that we had the audacity to ask if they had a fenced yard! Home four- the lady was in her 70's lived on the 8th floor of her apartment and thought she could provide a perfect home for the puppy. Home five - couldn't be bothered to come out to meet our dogs, she though we should bring them all in to see her, as she just didn't have time to make the drive and after all since I was a breeder what else did I have to do with my time!!! Home six –thought, the same thing, and when we even attended a trial just 30 minutes from their home. was too put out to drive out and meet us.
And for all that we do for our own sake, for our own dogs, a lady had an "accidental" breeding of our breed in the city for which she raped people over the coals asking an incredible $1800.00 for "CKC" registered puppies, she registered the litter, but not the individual dogs so the people that bought puppies have no papers, and do you want to know what the CKC suggested they do? Have the puppy buyers, go back to the breeder and offer her money to register the puppies?????? Wow, isn't that against, their own policies?
These puppies were taken from the mother at 4 weeks of age and some were sold at 5 weeks, no vaccines, no health certificate, no health testing, no champion parents, no papers, no deworming, living in disgusting conditions, and at last count she'd placed most of them, to people who had never had the breed, and have no clue about the breed, oh and one figures she's going to start a breeding kennel right away to make money. One owner has already been bitten by hers, the sire should never have been bred, not a pleasant temperament, and further, sorry this is so long and that I am venting, In our national breed club, we have had a situation in the past year of a member practising some poor breeding decisions and as a result our COE and constitution have undergone a complete revision, well "upstanding" members who wanted so many restrictions put in, to prevent these poor decisions just had an oops litter with 2 dogs under a year and a half, didn't even know the bitch was bred, no health testing of course, as they are too young and no champion parents, another breeder just knowingly bred a male at barely a year and a half. no testing, no championship. Now in these 2 cases I'm sure they will likely pursue titles and testing, but did exactly what they complained about this other breeder doing!
So I got thinking a lot, after looking at this CKC survey and I thought, really, who cares? Who is this going to benefit, the well being of the dogs?
Good breeders already go above and beyond, they don't need another program to join to certify the direction and experience that they already exhibit, this is just another cost!
The public? What do they care? When it comes right down to it it's just about money and convenience to them, breeders?
The good ones don't need it and the bad ones would never follow the policy, and let's face it, when it comes to the CKC they have a terrible reputation of a pay to play mentality. So if all it takes is to buy the program, and you get excellent status in the CKC expect all the puppy millers and poor breeders to jump in line. It's just more advertising for them, like that premier membership to get the puppy advertising, and yes I see the CKC is trying to make some measures to rectify this problem, it's a little too late.
So, to answer your question, what criteria, I don't think it matters, who would join anyway? It's basically money to substantiate what we are already doing, so why would I want to pay to do what I already pay to do? Being a member wouldn't change how we do things and it wouldn't provide any benefit, I don't need a program to tell me that we already go above and beyond with our dogs. Oh and that little bitch puppy with the incorrect bite, we kept her as there wasn't a home good enough for her. She's living here, coursing and doing publicity for the breed, so after all this I'm afraid I'm not going to be much help, but I will offer this, partnering with the SPCA could possibly spell the end of the purebred dog, bunch of radicals there, partnering with vets, Good luck, out here they still mandate shots every year, they are just as bad for wanting their piece of the pie, all common sense has gone out the window there, it's about money not welfare, partnering with OFA might give credence but they are already the gold standard, good breeders already work with them.
And money, if the CKC cared about dog welfare, they should be giving out accreditation to exemplary breeders, not charging them. But what it really comes down too, the CKC does not have a great track record for maintaining the programs they have, or with working with members, so whatever they decide to do, and we know ir-regardless of the feedback that the CKC will do what it wants, WHO is going to enforce said policy??????????
Patricia Taylor - Manitoba
I think it is a great program for the CKC to have. But I would like to see all the qualifications required for being a member AND a list of the benefits to a breeder for belonging to this program, like the AKC breeder program. Members should have at least five years involvement in events; CKC titles on a minimum of four dogs from CKC litters that you bred or co-bred; certification of all applicable parent club recommended health screen tests; and commitment to 100% individual registrations.
NO cost. I would pay an original fee of $50 but that would be it. AKC program is a free one.
There should be benefits to the breeders to belong, like free litter listings, discount on insurance fees, a certificate, a pin to wear.
Below is some information found online about each of the above individuals who responded in ShowScene:
William (Sandy) Gunn – Pointer, Gordon Setter and Jack Russell Terrier
Breeder and Judge – CKC and AKC
Brian Taylor – Taylor Ranch Kennels: Dalmatians and Dobermans
Kate MacMillan – Minuteman Kennels: Miniature Schnauzers
David Swartwood – Prelude Kennels: Springer Spaniels
Breeder and Judge
Jean Tremblay – Half Moon Kennels: Cavalier King Charles
Pam Murphy - Kennel TriNor Kennels: German Shepherds
Janice Lamontagne – Stonyroyde: OES
Leah Swatko – Cavaliking: Cavalier King Spaniels
Adele MacAskill – Merrymops Reg’d: OES
Reed Fowlie – Scythian Borzoi: Borzoi
Patricia Taylor – Brandachs Perm Reg’d: Dachsund
Breeder and Judge